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Post by frojoe23 on Dec 13, 2006 8:24:21 GMT -5
Here we go: Nutrition - I have periods where I really strive to watch what I eat and where I really don't. Usually in the base training phase I will put on about 5-10 pounds very quickly as my body has not adjusted to the lower intake of calories yet and it acts like I am starving myself and hoardes all of the calories that I do take in. Then about a month and a half into base training, my weight really starts to drop and very quickly. Now the way that his happens is by limiting my intake. I usually eat very light and stick to fish or pork for most of my diet. (Yes, I am no longer vegan!)
Usually at the end of base phase is when I am my lightest. When I start to add more and more miles, I obviously eat more and more. However, by this time I think the body has adjusted to a high workload and it is more efficient at burning calories, therefore you will put on a little bit of weight as it just doesn't take the same amount of calories to get in a 10 mile run.
The idea of periodizing your diet is very smart and I have followed the idea over the last year now and have really got great results. I do get yelled at by Jackie because she thinks I am starving myself right now, but it only looks that way because the quantity of food I was eating in September and October is 2x-3x what I am eating now. A great book to consult on this is Chris Carmichael's food for fitness.
Along the lines of nutrition, I try to eat well 6 days a week and then on Sunday kind of let loose. Now I may skip dessert, depending on how I feel, but I try not to pig out. I believe it is essential to reward yourself every once in a while. After all, a diet should never consist of you eliminating any food. All food can serve a purpose as fuel. And that is how each food should be treated - either as fuel for your run or as energy replacement after a run. You should follow the nutritional research and know what food works best as fuel in certain situations. Know that you shouldn't eat a baked potato before a 10 mile run. Know that the best ratio of carbs:protein in a post workout meal is 4:1 for optimum recovery.
So, onto weight lifting: The thing that made me a better runner and propeled me to run a season where everything was under 16 (about 3 years ago when I won GAR), but I really focused on lifting three days/week. I would focus on two body parts each session. Usually, legs and back, biceps and triceps, shoulders and back. Notice the two sessions with focus on the back. Unfortunately I have a back condition known as kyphosis ( a fancy term for a slouched posture) My focus on my back led to more upright running and along with ab work I was able to run in a correct posture giving more muscular power to my legs.
I really think that Woody's comments about how he feels more in control of his body when he is running fast hits the nail on the head. Lifting weights is along the same lines as doing intervals. The gained muscular power results in an increase in efficiency of movement. The two things that dictate how fast you can run are aerobic capacity and efficiency. Obviously the best ways to improve effieciency are by doing some sort of threshold run or moderate intervals. For those people like myself who don't like that, I think that weight training is a must to improve efficiency.
I also wanted to post that one thing that has helped me out is working two systems in one run. For example, my long run is also a place where I like to drop the pace at the end like a progression run. I also like to finish up some of my usual 10 mile runs with 800 meters hard at the end if I am feeling good. There is no reason why you can't through in 20 minutes of fartlek during a 16 mile run.
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Post by wvrunner on Dec 13, 2006 10:15:01 GMT -5
I agree with the weight training being a very individual specific thing. My weight beomes even more of an issue when I lift so it's something I don't do. I do alot of body weight exercises-push-ups,sit-ups,etc.( I'm fortunate to have a job that I can do those things as a part of the workday). Jaron spoke about the chris Carmichael Book Food for fitness-it's a great read for any endurance athlete (also very reader friendly). Jaron's right on with the nutrtion conciding with certain phases of training. I too, always start my base heavy and work down to "racing weight" when the race season rolls around. Jaron mentioned the base phase-what should the base phase consist of? let's hear your ideas.
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Post by woody on Dec 13, 2006 11:14:12 GMT -5
I believe that the base phase should start with just consistent running maybe 35-40 miles a week (or even less for some people) and gradually adding to the mileage. I think that it is also important to incorporate some tempo, fartlek, and hills during this phase. I don;t think track intervals and such are important during the base-training phase because this phase is for building strength.
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Post by frojoe23 on Dec 13, 2006 11:33:06 GMT -5
I think that the base phase all depends on what kind of race distance you are aiming to run. If you are an 800 meter runner than a small base of about 2-3 months of consitent slower paced runs is substantial. I think for the mid-distance guys that the base phase is where you reach your higher mileage totals, and then when it is time to focus on the speed, you cut down the mileage as the workout intensity increases.
For runners that are training for the longer races (10k +) I believe that the mileage should gradually increase throughout the base phase, but it will not be the largest mileage during the training cycle. I think that for these runners, the base phase is to condition your body to do more mileage at the end of the training cycle and to be ready to do that mileage at a higher pace. My belief is that a strong base consisting of slow paced runs over a 4 month period allows your body to be stronger and not break down from the increased workload late in the training cycle.
The base phase should also be treated as two separate phases. There is period of about 3 months where the focus is on nothing but getting in mileage, day after day after day at a slow pace. The last month of the base phase, I like to add some sort of fartlek or surges in the middle of my runs in order to either transition into running faster whether it be in a speed phase or a strength phase.
The approach that has worked for me is one that Dennis turned me onto. I treat the base phase as the longest part of my training cycle. It usually lasts anywhere from 4 - 5 months. There is a cycle within the cycle though. I break it down into a four week cycle, where for the first 3 weeks I increase my mileage (80,83,85), then the fourth week I like to recover from that workload by decreasing my mileage (60). Then I usually take the average of that previous three week cycle and start there for the next three weeks (83, 85, 88). This has worked very effectively and I treat my long run in that cycle the same way (15,16,17) followed by a run of 12, then the next three weeks are 16, 17, 18. This takes a lot of discipline (because the base is so long), but I truly believe that running is not a season's progression, it is a consistent progression over a 4-5 year period to reap the benefits of your training.
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Post by wvrunner on Dec 13, 2006 21:45:52 GMT -5
Great comments about the base phase, without a doubt what I feel is the most essential element in distance training. Mine works very similar to others. I take a phase of working the mileage up. After 6-10 weeks I work in fartlek (aerobic fartlek-15K pace),with short easy"soft tempo runs" ( 1 minute per mile slower than 5K pace for 3-4 miles) one of these a week alternating between the two. 4-8 weeks in that phase then finally more race specific training as the racing season opens up[. I'm not much on cutting my miles until 8-10 days out from the final race of the season. For myself and many others I've seen great races run off pretty high mileage weeks. Recent research supports the evidence that drastic tapering too soon greatly reduces aerobic capacity. Reduce the intensity but hold the volume is what has worked best for me. Some like to race often, and that's great, but for me, I've always devoted 2-3 months to racing in the spring/early summer and 2-3 months of racing in the late summer/fall. It's strange, but sometimes I like the training for the race as much as the race itself.
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Post by QCS Admin on Dec 14, 2006 9:20:15 GMT -5
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Post by Justin on Dec 14, 2006 10:49:07 GMT -5
I always look at Base phase as a new beginning. Most of the time it happens after a season or goal race, and then some sort of down time. I usually like to use the down time to reflect or appreciate the previous season or training cycle and goal races. Once Base starts though, all is forgotten. There is really no room for resting on our accomplishments of the past.
At the start of base phase I always look at myself as a blank page. Although it may not be true, but I try to work myself from scratch at that point. It is time to work on weaknesses and develop desired abilities. This is the time to make any changes in your training, most desirably it’s when you increase your basic mileage base. The work done now is the foundation for the rest of your “season”.
Duration varies, most high school runners can usually get 8-10 weeks over the summer at max. College a little longer, and post-collegiate much longer. Ideally for the longer races I would put in 3-4 months of base. It should start at a volume which is comfortable with almost all the running done at a completely aerobic pace. Mileage should increase as the runner can handle it. I really don’t try to impose any rules on that, everyone is different. Some people can’t increase much without feeling major effects, some can increase very sharply without any problems. The key in areas like this is to be honest with yourself when determining these things.
Basic components of my usual base phase are 2 long runs a week, mostly Wednesdays and Sundays. Sundays being the real long day and Wednesdays being not as long. For a HS XC runner 70-80 min on Wednesday and 90-100 min on Sundays. I like to run by time, not distance. For me personally a good level of training for base phase is 11 hours a week. Most of the other days are “normal” runs during base phase, some with a lot of hills. I usually push hills in training, so they act more as my up-tempo training early on. I also try to get the Sunday run on a hilly course. I think it is key to still work on the fast-twitch work I talked about before. Basic ability to turn your legs over is very important. Days off are rare overall for me when training. It’s been shown that a light easy day helps recovery more than days totally off. I would say when training hard I would take a day totally off about once every 4-6 weeks.
At the end of a good base phase I should have a great aerobic base and the ability to turn my legs over in quick sprints. The only real weakness should be my ability to run anaerobic for an extended period of time. Without the fast twitch work I feel when someone starts into the next phase of training with intervals and fast running they are working at a huge disadvantage. The first handful of workouts will not only be tough because of the lactic acid build-up, but all the fast twitch parts are also being broken in and will be sore, the ligaments, tendons, and muscles used just to cause fast motion will be underdeveloped. In the long run the workouts will not be as effective as they would be if these things were already in place.
Sorry to be long winded.
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Post by wvrunner on Dec 14, 2006 14:08:36 GMT -5
Good ideas for the base, lots of very good suggestions. Now let's discuss favorite workouts. What type of workout do people feel is most benificial. I know no single workout provides "magic", but what types of workouts gives you the final edge in prearing for racing.
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Post by woody on Dec 14, 2006 15:58:01 GMT -5
During the early racing season towards the middle my favorite workouts consist of doing intervals usually 800 or above where you may start the first few in a slower pace and progressivly get faster throughout the workout. Also incorporating tempo runs. One of the best confidnece building tempos that we do is the 10 mile tempo that we do in the middle of the season. It is a big boost to run sub 60 for 10 miles and it feels pretty easy. Towards the end of the season I like to shorten the intervals anywhere from 200-600 meters. It usually helps me to feel snappy while adding some much needed speed to my arsenal.
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Post by wvrunner on Dec 15, 2006 5:44:36 GMT -5
I guess it's possibly my age but this is an area in which I've shifted my philosophy lately. I've always been a big proponent of longer intervals 800's,1000's,1200's and mile repeats. I still like those distances ecspecially for the 5K and up but the pace I do them at has changed. I used to hammer mile repeats out at a pace faster than 5K pace, hanging off the fence of the track after each repeat. I began to notice that as I aged I couldn't recover and also reached a "peak" in just 2-3 weeks of these workouts. Recently I've shifted the pace of these workouts to a pace closer to 10K pace added more repeats and a funny thing happened. I've run some of my fastest 5K's,10K's and longer since doing so. The effort on these intervals has the sensation of "comfortably hard" rather than all out. I'll never know, but I wonder if I didn't leave alot of my best races on the track. I know that a young track athlete preparing for a 800 or mile can't apply these principles about interval distance or pace but it has worked for me. My favorite workout 4-5 x a mile.
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Post by frojoe23 on Dec 15, 2006 8:28:02 GMT -5
This discussion keeps on getting better and better. I will be attempting one of my favorite workouts on Sunday. I agree with Justin's thoughts on having a course that you can come back to and use as a gauge of your overall fitness. This course for me is my Christie Road long run. I use my 17 mile course as a huge negative split run. The goal is to be depleted with 6 miles to go and then have to increase the pace dramatically.
The way this happens is the hills on Christie Road. I run from the house over to Frederick Street and out to Nave's Crossroad, then I run Christie Road in reverse. By the time I get to the junkyard, I am usually fried. The downhill to AC is a chance to get rolling but still be relaxed. By the time I get to AC, I gradually start to pick up the pace. The real work begins when I turn down Shades Lane. At the end of Shades, I run in on Frederick and over to house on Henderson, then I run a loop up to Braddock and back to the house.
If you think Christie Road is hilly, then try running Shades Lane at the end of that - it is a killer for sure. In January, I was able to take this run in 1:46 (6:14 pace) for 17 miles. I knew at this point that I was in pretty good shape. On another run in December, I ran the final 6 miles in 35:12 (5:52 pace).
I also like to really focus on running negative splits for my long runs, but I have to feel comfortable while doing it. I put a lot of emphasis on running easy for the first 1/4 of my long run, then running fairly hard for the 2nd 1/4 so that when I turn around I make a decision to relax at not worry about the pace. That usually leads to a fairly large negative split on the way back simply by not worrying about it and really thinking more about form than anything else. My two best examples of this come the week before the Chambersburg half last year in which I ran 20 on the Canal. I was out in 61:17 (6:18 pace) and back in at (59:48) 5:59 pace). The other one is the week after Chambersburg where I ran the same 20 miles on the Canal. Out in 58:33 and back in 58:47. I know that it is not a negative split, but it was a day that I was very sick and had extreme stomach cramps the final 3 miles or so and shut it down. All in all, a 20-miler at 5:52 pace. This is why I think that I was in the best shape of my life last Spring, not this past fall. Wow, I just realized that I said my favorite workout is a LONG RUN! That is pretty scary for me. Very far from where I was 3-4 years ago.
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Post by Justin on Dec 15, 2006 9:02:34 GMT -5
Great stuff guys.
I really think when it comes to workouts it really depends on what stage of the training you are in. Coach Mickey, I really think you may have very well left some of your races on the track. I don't see anything wrong with really having some "gut busting" workouts, but it really shouldn't be a regular thing. Most likely the best times for those kind are well away from goal races and more in the middle of a season or even when you first start doing workouts for the season. Later season workouts should have a primary goal of preparing for the paces you want to hit during the races. Pace recognition is very important.
I'm a little different than Jaron. I would probably never make my long run a workout. Most of the time my long run is the day after my most intense day, like an interval workout on Saturday and long on Sunday. I usually feel better as as the long run goes on, by the end I may be tired, but my legs usually feel pretty good.
Key workouts for me all have their purpose, but they seem to be the ones I respond too.
1. Mile repeats, probably the hardest workouts. If I'm going to throw-up after a tough workout, this is it. This is definitely the staple workout. I'll start with 3-4 reps and add 1 a week or so until I'm at 6-8. Pace and recovery depends on goal race. Other longer intervals are good, I really like 2-3 x 2-mile.
2. 1000m cruises. I really like these early in the season. 1000m cruise intervals with very little recovery.
3. 40-20's. This is probably my favorite workout, quick and painful. They are continuous intervals of 40 sec. hard 20 sec jog. In HS we did 15 minutes of these, I've done as much as 25 minutes. These are best done on a track with a coach blowing a whistle to go and jog, this way you don't have to be staring at a watch the whole time, and the coach can play with time some at the end to maybe make it 45-15 or something like that.
4. Long Tempos. Like 10k.
The basics for me are that each workout should be for a certain reason. I really don't like the kind of workouts which are lots of short intervals at a not so fast pace. In college the 10k guys would always do 5 X (4x400) with 1 min recovery inside the sets and 400 jog between sets all at 70. It seemed to me that this workout sounds a lot tougher than it is. I never really thought this prepared me for the 10k, or anything for that matter. I think if I was going to be running 400's they should be fast, and if I was going to be workout out at 70 sec Q's I should be doing 800's or 1000's, and if I was going to be putting in 5 miles of intervals, they would have better been done in longer intervals closer to race pace. An observation to make to spot a "bad" workout I think is if there are guys that are considerably slower keeping up with guys which are much faster than them. For these 400's it was not strange for 34 min 10k runners keeping up with sub 31min guys for the entire time.
Another thing, I wished coaches and athletes would stop getting so imaginative with the workouts. I really think one interval workout should have 2 distances of intervals at most. I don't know if it is the ADD culture we live in, but it seems like more people seem to be doing 4-5 different interval distances in a workout. That drives me crazy. You should go into the workout and leave the workout knowing exactly what the purpose of the workout and what was accomplished.
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Post by wvrunner on Dec 15, 2006 14:12:08 GMT -5
Justin you are right on with the multiple distances. Stick to the basics 8 x 1000, 4 x 1600. As far as the 400's for the 10K, I agree also. 400's are meant to be fast, no purpose is served by running them at lactate pace. I knew a coach who prided himself on saying his girls ran 20 400's, when asked about the pace he said "it doesn't matter". That type of thinking drives me crazy. I feel as though a long interval workout followed by some fast 200's at the end does a much better job at creating the adaptations necessary for longer races.
Another thing I've found to help maintain turnover is incorportating strides as a part of the end phase of a warm-up prior to a workout. I go 10-15 minutes easy, then do 5-6 x 20 seconds hard, 40 seconds easy then cruise right into the workout, makes the first interval much easier to do. I do the same on the cooldown, giving me 10-12 striders plus the workout. I try to do these two times a week substituting these on an easier day if no second workout is planned.
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Post by frojoe23 on Dec 15, 2006 15:28:34 GMT -5
I was wondering if any of you guys use Heart Rate monitors or anything to monitor your effort, such as the new GPS/watch combos. I have seen Dennis using a HR monitor more and more especially this summer. I gave it a go, but I really didn't like it. I found myself spending too much time looking at my watch and not enough actually enjoying my run (obviously an easy day). I only used it to slow down my runs, but they just seemed too slow.
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Post by wvrunner on Dec 15, 2006 22:42:32 GMT -5
The heart rate monitor I use is from our school. It started out as an experiment and I ended up using it more and more. I used it to correlate heart rates with certain types of workouts. After about two months I knew what my heart rate should be for the various types of workouts. The most interesting thing to me was how my tempo heart rate stayed in the 150-155 per beat range throughout my entire marathon training phase but the pace of my tempos went down. The last two weeks before the marathon I stopped wearing it because I wanted to rely on the "feel" of running at the proper pace. I really think many advanced runners have enough of a feel that a monitor is not necessary. The big advantage possibly, preventing recovery runs from being run too fast.
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